Pet loops

[Lou... 3,118]

Come on Captain Lou, admit it......you thought I was talking about a cooking spice.

 

I sure did.

I wasn't kidding when I wrote that I had to look it up to find out what it meant, just like I had to do with your screen name.

BTW, I still don't see an AKA.

[caveat lector 181]

I sure did.

.....BTW, I still don't see an AKA.

Yep, just trying to keep my web footprint small until (hopefully) I make it to retirement.

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

I've seen a few reports over the years of people reporting dogs in non-pet loops where the people with the dog were actually asked to board the dog or move.  I can't substantiate the reports but they were reportedly cases where people had snuck the dog in, not where they were assigned those sites by Disney, knowing full well they had a dog.  These reports are rare.

 

More often what I've seen reported is that the person that called in the complaint was given the option of moving to another loop.

 

Huh?!?!

 

So the person breaking the rules has no consequences, and the person who's just trying to enjoy their vacation has to pull up stakes and relocate.

 

Makes no sense.

 

Disney needs a clear and consistent pet policy, and they need to enforce it.  Other campgrounds with far less staff and resources do it all the time.

 

If they want to designate pet/non-pet loops (and I think they should for all the reasons that have been discussed) they should allow guests to easily reserve whichever they want when they book.  Want a pet loop and they're fully booked?  Then you know that when you make your reservation, and you decide to either leave your pet at home or board there.

 

It's really not rocket science.

 

But then again, we're talking about management that is notorious for making rules that are often vague, inconsistently noted, and randomly enforced.

 

Excellent post.

 

It's amazing how messed up the Fort management can make something that other places have no trouble getting right.

 

And that is true for more than just the pet loop issue.

 

TCD

[caveat lector 181]

I've seen a few reports over the years of people reporting dogs in non-pet loops where the people with the dog were actually asked to board the dog or move.  I can't substantiate the reports but they were reportedly cases where people had snuck the dog in, not where they were assigned those sites by Disney, knowing full well they had a dog.  These reports are rare.

 

More often what I've seen reported is that the person that called in the complaint was given the option of moving to another loop.

 

Huh?!?!

 

So the person breaking the rules has no consequences, and the person who's just trying to enjoy their vacation has to pull up stakes and relocate.

 

Makes no sense.

 

Disney needs a clear and consistent pet policy, and they need to enforce it.  Other campgrounds with far less staff and resources do it all the time.

 

If they want to designate pet/non-pet loops (and I think they should for all the reasons that have been discussed) they should allow guests to easily reserve whichever they want when they book.  Want a pet loop and they're fully booked?  Then you know that when you make your reservation, and you decide to either leave your pet at home or board there.

 

It's really not rocket science.

 

But then again, we're talking about management that is notorious for making rules that are often vague, inconsistently noted, and randomly enforced.

You make a thoughtful and well reasoned point.

I just can't see the following conversation occurring:

Customer- I would like a reservation for next week and am bringing my dog

Disney reservation - Sorry, we have 40 lots available, but they are in the not pet loop

Customer - OK, thanks, I'll look elsewhere

Disney reservation - thanks for calling and enjoy spending your vacation dollars elsewhere. Sorry we couldn't accommodate.

They can put all sorts of fancy phrasing around it, but Disney is a business and is driven by profits. Sometimes profits drive poor short term decision making, but they still are what drive it,

[Lou... 3,118]

 

It's amazing how messed up the Fort management can make something that other places have no trouble getting right.

 

 

Come on, say it. I know you want to.

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

You make a thoughtful and well reasoned point.

I just can't see the following conversation occurring:

Customer- I would like a reservation for next week and am bringing my dog

Disney reservation - Sorry, we have 40 lots available, but they are in the not pet loop

Customer - OK, thanks, I'll look elsewhere

Disney reservation - thanks for calling and enjoy spending your vacation dollars elsewhere. Sorry we couldn't accommodate.

They can put all sorts of fancy phrasing around it, but Disney is a business and is driven by profits. Sometimes profits drive poor short term decision making, but they still are what drive it,

 

Good illustration.

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

They'll do anything for a buck.  You want to let your kid drive the golfcart you rented from them?  Sure, by all means- we don't want to take it away from you or have to refund your money.

 

Want to put more than 10 folks on a campsite?  Sure, come on down!  If your money's green we'll take it!

 

You want to keep your pit bull in a tent?  OK-show me the money.

 

 

 

Come on, say it. I know you want to.

 

I'm tired of saying it.

 

TCD

[BradyBzLyn...Mo 2,023]

Good illustration.

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

They'll do anything for a buck.  You want to let your kid drive the golfcart you rented from them?  Sure, by all means- we don't want to take it away from you or have to refund your money.

 

Too true, however they fall on their faces with that logic all the time.

 

Scenario...

Guest staying for 2 weeks (or longer) who intentionally requested a non-pet loop (for XYZ reason) has a neighbor who snuck in an unruly pet over the weekend.  Guest calls front desk and guess what?? They are offered up the option to switch loops or suck it up for the weekend.

 

Who is Disney making more money off of?  Yet who is Disney pissing off and who are they accommodating?

 

Not saying this exact scenario has occurred, but just playing the numbers I'd be willing to bet it has.

 

While money may be their motivating factor, I think their inability to enforce the rules goes way past that.

 

Look at the situation with huge out-of-control groups coming into the tent sites over the weekends.  These are sometimes (often?) groups that never go into the parks. They cook at their sites.  They max out the occupancy (and exceed it in some cases) and overload the facilities (the Wild Womenz ran into this just this past weekend).

 

Yet when other Guests staying much longer and presumably spending a lot more money at Disney complain, it is rare that anything happens. And when this happens, which Guest is more likely to NOT return because of the experience?  The one that spent a ton of money only to have their trip interrupted by chaos, or the ones that spent very little and had a grand ol' time?

 

There will always be people to fill a vacant site.  Disney knows this.  It's the reason they keep jacking up the prices despite complaints by regular Guests.  That's why I really don't think it's a case of not wanting to lose a paying customer, since they're doing that now - and in many cases pissing off the good and loyal customers in favor of the ones that just cause them headaches, and the potential loss of other customers.

 

The rules are supposedly there to keep the Fort Guests safe and happy, and cover Disney's butt legally.  Why bother having them otherwise?

 

Disney just needs to grow a pair, and give their CMs the training, and the backup from management, to enforce the rules when necessary. 

[tim5055 120]

 

 

Disney needs a clear and consistent pet policy, and they need to enforce it.  Other campgrounds with far less staff and resources do it all the time.

 

This is where I get confused over how Disney does things.  In all my years camping I can't remember ever running into a campground that divided up the place and said pets can camp over here, but not there.

 

I've seen them that say certain breeds are not permitted and I've seen them prohibit pets entirely.  Can't take the on trails, yup, seen that one.  Not in the playground area, again I've seen it.

 

Never have see anything like Disney is trying to do.

 

I'm sure now everyone will start showing me examples, but as I said I've never experienced it.

 

I will admit, with Natasha and now Niko (German Shepherd Dogs for those who have missed my website) we avoid places that are restrictive as to pets or breeds.

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

As CL said so eloquently above: "Sometimes profits drive poor short term decision making."

 

That's what we have at the Fort with the current regime.

 

They don't really seem to be thinking long-term.

 

The way I see it, they must scramble like heck every year to have a nice bottom line.  If that means they have to disappoint long-time faithful customers, they don't care.  Fill their spots with 10 greaseballs from Miami-their money's green too.

 

Who cares about the future?

 

TCD

[tim5055 120]

The rules are supposedly there to keep the Fort Guests safe and happy, and cover Disney's butt legally.  Why bother having them otherwise?

 

Disney just needs to grow a pair, and give their CMs the training, and the backup from management, to enforce the rules when necessary. 

While having rules does help cover their butt, the enforcement or them would require a lot of training and documentation if action is taken.  I don't ever see them allowing anyone who is not a manager asking someone to leave and then that opens up new cans of worms.

 

Think about it.  CM#1 asks me to pack up and leave.  They note the file that I violated a rule and my remaining balance was refunded.  Two years later they are served with a lawsuit from me saying I was evicted because I am Scottish (we are a protected class you know).  They need to have a system in place to be able to refute such a stupid claim and they never really know who is going to sue until moths or years later.  It is less expensive for them to do it the way they are now then to create a new system and paper trail to document what they have done.

 

Just a thought....

[Lou... 3,118]

 because I am Scottish (we are a protected class you know). 

 

Who knew?

[Grumpy and Grandma 739]

That is where the problem is. The majority (those who follow and want the rules enforced) are not catered to those who break the rules are.

I'm not sure I can agree with that statement.

Based on what I've seen lately, the majority does not follow the rules.

The pet rule in the pamphlet says any dog outside of an RV must be on a hand-held leash less than 6 feet long.

The majority of pet owners at the Fort do not follow this rule.

TCD

My reference was to all the rules not just pets. Also there must be "case law" somewhere involving pets, leashes and law suits. Every State, County, Federal and private CG that we have ever visited that allow pets all state "Pets must be on a 6 ft leash" and as with DISNEY it is normally not enforced.

[Lou... 3,118]

 "Pets must be on a 6 ft leash" and as with DISNEY it is normally not enforced.

 

Actually the Fort's leash length guideline is stipulated on the pet agreement as being 8 ft. Do CMs walk around with a tape measure? What if the leash is 8'6"?

You'll notice that I said guideline. The pet agreement states that they are guidelines, not rules

How many pet owners have shown proof of vaccination? We never were asked to show it, but it's on the pet agreement. What a joke.

[BradyBzLyn...Mo 2,023]

Never have see anything like Disney is trying to do.

 

I'm sure now everyone will start showing me examples, but as I said I've never experienced it.

 

Neither have I.  My experience re: pets in campgrounds has been the same as yours.  And we too avoid campgrounds that aren't pet friendly.  After all, the 3 reasons we have a camper in the first place are in my signature.  :)

 

While having rules does help cover their butt, the enforcement or them would require a lot of training and documentation if action is taken.  I don't ever see them allowing anyone who is not a manager asking someone to leave and then that opens up new cans of worms.

 

It's a fair point.  There would have to be a procedure in place for how that works, and most likely a manager would be the one to make the call.

 

It's been reported that people have been asked to leave the Fort on rare occasions (for a variety of reasons) so there must be some sort of policy in place already.  And I'm sure there is a bunch of paperwork involved. 

[BradyBzLyn...Mo 2,023]

Actually the Fort's leash length guideline is stipulated on the pet agreement as being 8 ft. Do CMs walk around with a tape measure? What if the leash is 8'6"?

You'll notice that I said guideline. The pet agreement states that they are guidelines, not rules

How many pet owners have shown proof of vaccination? We never were asked to show it, but it's on the pet agreement. What a joke.

 

We've never been asked at the Fort. 

 

We have at other campgrounds that have actual, enforced pet rules.

[lightbikes 73]

I have to agree with the comment above regarding when does one guest's "magical experience" get compromised by another's.  I don't think anyone, least of all Disney management has an answer.

 

We've been here since the beginning of December in the 1500 loop.  There truly hasn't been a day when someone hasn't come through with a dog/dogs for a walk.  We've tried to politely point out to people this isn't a pet loop - that there are signs to say pets are not to come beyond certain points but no one seems to think this applies to their special pet.  So we watch where we put our feet and try and make sure we don't track too much c@@p.

 

We've had more then four dogs on some sites and last weekend we had a particularly large bunch of people in spread over 7 or 8 sites who had a couple of dogs, once of which got free and chased the turkeys all over the loop.  While you have to feel sorry for the turkey it was sure fun to watch 6 people trying to run down one dog!!!! That was almost worth the loss of sleep when they kept us awake with their party.  

 

On the other hand we had one week where there were several very noisy dogs at one site that barked all night and all day.  Several of us I think complained and someone from Disney showed up and the dogs were removed from the site.  I don't know if they went to the kennel, perhaps compliments of Disney, or if they were sent home since the owners plates were local; but at least peace and quiet were restored to our little corner of the world.

 

Having vented, it would still be nice if there were a clearly stated and enforced policy and if there were some loops that we could rely on being always and clearly off limits to the dogs.  

[djsamuel 322]

the Fort Wilderness map clearly shows what are and are not pet loops ( http://www.fortfiends.net/_/info/fort-wilderness-loop-classification-map-r196 ) If Disney wants to keep those designations, then they should enforce it.  If they don't want to enforce that, then remove the designations.  No matter what, don't  create a false impression of how the place is run, and especially don't force the guests to be the enforcers by waiting for them to complain before doing something about it. 

[BradyBzLyn...Mo 2,023]

the Fort Wilderness map clearly shows what are and are not pet loops ( http://www.fortfiends.net/_/info/fort-wilderness-loop-classification-map-r196 ) If Disney wants to keep those designations, then they should enforce it.  If they don't want to enforce that, then remove the designations.  No matter what, don't  create a false impression of how the place is run, and especially don't force the guests to be the enforcers by waiting for them to complain before doing something about it. 

 

^^THIS^^ x100

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

 

There will always be people to fill a vacant site.  Disney knows this.  It's the reason they keep jacking up the prices despite complaints by regular Guests.  That's why I really don't think it's a case of not wanting to lose a paying customer, since they're doing that now - and in many cases pissing off the good and loyal customers in favor of the ones that just cause them headaches, and the potential loss of other customers.

 

 

So true and so, so sad.  I bet Mr. Disney is turning over in his grave...from all I've read and watched on him, he was a man who yes, wanted to make a buck (a lot of them) but he valued people.  

 

What this all comes down to, is people's lack of respect for others.  Yes, my sweet girl is very afraid of dogs...but if (all) dog owners respected other people and made sure their animals were taken care of (kenneled or in the RV during the day when they are at the park or always on a leash and not allowed to bark incessantly) then the concern for a non-pet loop wouldn't be as huge.  If you respect others enough, to not bring an aggressive animal to the campground and if you cleaned up after the animals that you did bring... then this issue would (my guess) all but go away.

But... people no longer respect other people.  The same as with the example of the teenagers being reckless on the golf carts... my dad would have come close to beating the living crap out of me if I was so disrespectful to others.  Or heck, the grown adults who have had too much to drink and act likes idiots on their golf cart or are way too loud at their campsite... no respect for others.

 

As for Disney stepping up and enforcing the rules....much needed. Didn't I read somewhere that a new GM took over in the last year or so...? Has that helped at all??

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

Actually the Fort's leash length guideline is stipulated on the pet agreement as being 8 ft. Do CMs walk around with a tape measure? What if the leash is 8'6"?

You'll notice that I said guideline. The pet agreement states that they are guidelines, not rules

How many pet owners have shown proof of vaccination? We never were asked to show it, but it's on the pet agreement. What a joke.

 

We need a current copy of the pet agreement.  The one I posted is from December, 2010.  It may have changed.  The one I posted says 8'.  The blurb in the current check-in material says 6'.

 

Also the pet agreement says dogs cannot stay in pop-up campers or tents.  But, when I checked in and signed that agreement, I was pulling a pop-up camper which the CM could clearly see.

 

I guess it's hard to enforce the rules when nobody knows what they are.

 

TCD

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

 

As for Disney stepping up and enforcing the rules....much needed. Didn't I read somewhere that a new GM took over in the last year or so...? Has that helped at all??

 

The new manager just arrived in December 2013.  He came from a management position at the Grand Floridian.  There is nothing on his resume to suggest that he has the first clue about operating a campground.

 

So, no, nothing has changed, and I really don't expect it to.

 

TCD

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

Here's some food for thought. . .

 

Do you know how many pet-friendly campsites there are at the Fort vs. non-pet sites?

 

I just counted them up.

 

483 of the 799 campsites are on pet-friendly loops.

 

That's just over 60%.

 

Seems like that's plenty enough that they don't need to let guests with pets stay on the non-pet loops.

 

This could all be solved by clearly stating the rules on the website, and enforcing those rules. It's not rocket science.

 

TCD

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

Here's some food for thought. . .

 

Do you know how many pet-friendly campsites there are at the Fort vs. non-pet sites?

 

I just counted them up.

 

483 of the 799 campsites are on pet-friendly loops.

 

That's just over 60%.

 

Seems like that's plenty enough that they don't need to let guests with pets stay on the non-pet loops.

 

This could all be solved by clearly stating the rules on the website, and enforcing those rules. It's not rocket science.

 

TCD

 

 

:bravo:  

[Retired and Happy (Ken) 101]

We have not had a real problem with pet (read:Dogs) at the Fort, but we have been put in pet loops when we did not have a pet and been put in non-pet loops where several-to-many pets were also in residence.  I agree rules should be enforced or modified so everyone knows what to expect.  I was reading some campground ads yesterday with emphasis on Campground Rules.  ALL were VERY clear on dog rules...where they could be and NOT be, leash length, cleanup.  All the things that should be common sense for prople who are considerate of others.  Some  campgrounds prohibited dogs altogether.  There is plenty of room at the Fort to allow pets, but separate from non-pet areas.  In the meantime, please cleanup after your pet, follow the GUIDELINES.

[Lou... 3,118]

We need a current copy of the pet agreement. 

 

That form you posted is a "Release and Indemnity Agreement" and is the same as the one currently online.

 

I also found what Disney calls requirements for pets, and not rules. See below.

 

 

 

Requirements for pets:

• $5 fee per day charged for pets to stay at a site. 
• Maximum of four dogs per site
• Owners must have proof of the following vaccinations:
  • Rabies
  • D.H.P. (Distemper, Hepatitis, Para influenza)
  • Parvovirus
• Pets must be on a 8' long, max, leash at all times
• Pets are restricted to their pet loop except when being walked (on leash) to the dog park.
• Pets cannot be unattended in RVs unless adequate climate control is provided
• Pets may not be unattended if other guests are disturbed (Example: barking or whining)
• Pets are not permitted in tents or pop-up campers.
• Pets must be walked on designated pet path.
• Pet owners must clean-up after their pet.
• Pets are not allowed on golf carts unless being transported to the dog park.
• Pet owners not following these policies must kennel their pet.