Fiend Advocacy?

[keith_h 420]

While adding sites would be great I don't know that it would do a lot to relieve the situation. Unless they add a huge number of sites I think you will still have the situation where there will be more locals that want to book sites than are available. Disney would still have the problem of how do you hold back sites for long distance guests that need weekend dates (or restricting locals if you prefer). Don't forget that much of the year there are plenty of sites available during the week. Increasing the size of the Fort will just make for more empty sites and their amenities that cost money as opposed to making it. 

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

4 minutes ago, keith_h said:

While adding sites would be great I don't know that it would do a lot to relieve the situation. Unless they add a huge number of sites I think you will still have the situation where there will be more locals that want to book sites than are available. Disney would still have the problem of how do you hold back sites for long distance guests that need weekend dates (or restricting locals if you prefer). Don't forget that much of the year there are plenty of sites available during the week. Increasing the size of the Fort will just make for more empty sites and their amenities that cost money as opposed to making it. 

Valid points.  One way that they could address that problem would be an idea I floated a few months ago here.

Build another camping area just for weekend demand with very basic services, it would be a Disneyfied parking lot sort of like the Caravan Parks they have in Europe.  Put it somewhere on property that they have no plans for. Call it a Value Resort and price it accordingly.

The next step after that would be to call the Fort a Moderate resort and then ideally at some point later they would create a Deluxe CG with all the bells and whistles for high-end customers or super-big rigs. (Call it Fort Beverly Hills...   )

I know I'm talking crazy, but hey it would be one way to expand the supply of weekend campsites and also address the other very different customer bases they are serving.  It wouldn't cost Disney that much if they re-purposed some vacant land, maybe part of the Race Track not being used (and already paved, just paint some new lines), or how about over by the Sports Complex?

Nothing about this would keep any weekender from staying at the Fort if they wanted to, but for those seeking a good deal that just want to go to the Parks for the weekend it would provide a great alternative, just like the choices we have in different levels of Disney Hotels.  

 

[Cortezcapt (Derek) 156]

Valid points.  One way that they could address that problem would be an idea I floated a few months ago here.

Build another camping area just for weekend demand with very basic services, it would be a Disneyfied parking lot sort of like the Caravan Parks they have in Europe.  Put it somewhere on property that they have no plans for. Call it a Value Resort and price it accordingly.

The next step after that would be to call the Fort a Moderate resort and then ideally at some point later they would create a Deluxe CG with all the bells and whistles for high-end customers or super-big rigs. (Call it Fort Beverly Hills... [emoji6]  )

I know I'm talking crazy, but hey it would be one way to expand the supply of weekend campsites and also address the other very different customer bases they are serving.  It wouldn't cost Disney that much if they re-purposed some vacant land, maybe part of the Race Track not being used (and already paved, just paint some new lines), or how about over by the Sports Complex?

Nothing about this would keep any weekender from staying at the Fort if they wanted to, but for those seeking a good deal that just want to go to the Parks for the weekend it would provide a great alternative, just like the choices we have in different levels of Disney Hotels.  

 

The problem with that is I for one would not want to camp there. Even just our weekend trips and I think probably for a lot of weekenders it's not so much about going to the parks it's staying at the Fort. We have gone up for weekend trips that we never left the Fort. I wouldn't want to be in a glorified parking lot. So unless they put a minimum time on sites at the Fort the same would still be happening. Now would it cut down on phantom reservations, sure people are going to pick the cheaper place. But like most of the other ideas, it wouldn't make sense for disney to build , staff, run, and add transportation for more camping areas that will only be used on weekends and holidays and sit empty most of the time.

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[Avatab.... Steve 124]

11 minutes ago, Cortezcapt (Derek) said:

The problem with that is I for one would not want to camp there. Even just our weekend trips and I think probably for a lot of weekenders it's not so much about going to the parks it's staying at the Fort. We have gone up for weekend trips that we never left the Fort. I wouldn't want to be in a glorified parking lot. So unless they put a minimum time on sites at the Fort the same would still be happening. Now would it cut down on phantom reservations, sure people are going to pick the cheaper place. But like most of the other ideas, it wouldn't make sense for disney to build , staff, run, and add transportation for more camping areas that will only be used on weekends and holidays and sit empty most of the time.

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All good points Derek.

I agree with you, I also would want to stay at the Fort, but how many times have we seen posts right here on FF that someone couldn't get a campsite so they either didn't go at all, stayed at a CG outside Disney, or ended up getting a room at one of the resorts and left the camper at home?

You are most likely right about Disney not ever doing this, but then again they built a whole bunch of different resort levels, and even have different levels of rooms inside each resort (just like the Fort does).  I know they are all about DVC lately, but Disney HATES to lose guests to off-property hotels, why wouldn't they want to keep all the camping guests they can?

I also think that it could be done for a pretty low cost. I could be wrong (and often am  )  but it should cost a lot less to just take a parking lot or a field, build a couple of comfort stations, and have a check-in and a check-out office.  I know many CGs, public and private, that have very minimal staffing and services.

Walt Disney's original aim for the Fort was to have an affordable alternative for families to come to WDW in their station wagon or camper and not break the budget. I think we can all agree that staying at today's Fort is increasingly hard to justify for a lot of families.

Even if it only served a fraction of the weekend demand, it would make it a lot easier for you and me to get into the Fort. 

It definitely wouldn't be for everyone and it most certainly wouldn't be the Fort, but it could work as a choice for those on a strict budget or those who just can't get a site at the Fort.

Anyway, really just thinking out loud, thanks for the counterpoints. We should all be hired as Disney customer feedback panelists  

 

[disneylitch......Debbie 60]

22 hours ago, Avatab.... Steve said:

 

As far as the Phantom Campers, I don't agree that we have to accept that. There are two things driving the Phantom Camper problem:

1. Booking a site at the Fort is (usually) cheaper than any other room option on Disney property. And like all on-property "rooms", a campsite comes with all the perks.

2. Unlike hotel rooms, A campsite allows you to get those perks for up to 10 unrelated people.

Combine those two and you get why they do it. It is the cheapest way per-person to get Disney On-property perks for your Off-property group.

I believe that with a little thought, you could do a carrot/stick approach to address the issue.

Now, If it was up to me, I would recommend changing or altering the number of people allowed per-campsite policy.  Not only is it being abused by the Phantom Campers, but it is also routinely abused by large groups that cram way too many people, cars, tents, loudspeakers, golf-carts, etc etc onto one or two campsites and in doing that they end up bothering everyone around them.....

I know, I know, most big families or groups don't abuse the policy, but enough do to make it a constant complaint at the Fort. (How many pictures of overcrowded sites have we seen right here at FF?)

Here's my suggestion:  All groups of unrelated people (Scouts, Church groups, Social groups,etc) should be required to use the Group Sites, or Rent an entire loop.

And for families, do what practically every other campground does:  2 adults, 4 children per site.  Allow extra adults or children, but only with an extra charge or require them to rent another site.

If you reduce the attraction and enforce the rules, the problems created by Large Groups, either Phantom or Real, will greatly diminish.

 

I do not have a problem with 10 people per site.  When we visit the fort, we sometimes have 4 adults and 3 children.  With the cost of a site, adding on an additional charge for more than 2 adults will get costly.  In general, I don't think overcrowded sites are the problem, underage golf cart driving is a huge problem.  When we were at the fort at Christmas, we encountered an underage golf cart driver.  We asked her age and her parents, sitting at their site, told us it was none of our business.  I told them that as long as I was paying to stay at the fort, it was my business.  In another instance, we were almost run over by a golf cart driven by an adult trying to find a parking space.  This is an even bigger problem then large parties.  A large group doesn't usually pose a threat to other campers.

[Santa ... Shannon 160]

I see phantom campers as a non-issue to Disney. The site is paid for, what difference is it to Disney if someone is not using their water and electric and paid for it?

Phantom campers are not a win for Disney. They are far more likely to dine and shop off-property.

They aren't a win for the Fort either. Sure they don't use water or electricity, and they don't leave messes at the site. But they also don't buy snacks at the pool, or trinkets in the post. They don't rent golf carts or go on hayrides, either.

[AuburnChris 193]

Are we a bit hung up on this "phantom campers" thing, maybe? Are there any real numbers telling us how many times someone actually makes a reservation at the Fort and then doesn't use their campsite, staying somewhere else off-property? How is that even economical?

I wonder if this "phantom camper" thing isn't just anecdotal, with people who see a vacant campsite on a busy week assuming that it's a "phantom campsite" and not just one that's vacant for a different, logical reason?

I'm not trying to deny that phantom campers exist, I'm just wondering if it's not as big a problem as we're making it here. (Also, I'm wondering very hard why we're trying to solve it, because there's no way we're going to do that.)

[Grumpy and Grandma 739]

1 minute ago, AuburnChris said:

Are we a bit hung up on this "phantom campers" thing, maybe?

yes

I'm not trying to deny that phantom campers exist, I'm just wondering if it's not as big a problem as we're making it here.

no it's not

As many of you know Linda and I were very blessed and we were able to spend "lots" of time at the FORT. There were few, if any, weekends with numerous empty sites. Maybe it happens in the summer, but not in Jan, Feb, Mar or over Spring Break.

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

It may or may not be a huge problem, I do know it was a hot topic on a Disney-related FB page last year and several people reported that it was a tactic promoted by some rental agents in the WDW area in order to push their own rental properties....

Remember the flap awhile back about some Agents promoting the use of a "handicapped" person in order to cut lines at the parks?  If there's a way to scam the system you can bet there are those who will, and the idea quickly spreads. IIRC Disney even changed their policies as a result of that one.

And don't forget that you don't have to rent a campsite for more than one night to get your group of up to 10 people the ability to make FP's and dining reservations with MB's for everyone.  It's possible that some sites that are empty even just for one night are being used by off-property groups to score advance ressies and Mbands.

As far as why we are discussing it, or trying to solve it, it's just another interesting discussion that has gone off on a tangent on a rainy day like so many here do... no ill will intended.

 

[Santa ... Shannon 160]

There have been multiple threads on Voldemort (in the non-camping sections) about the strategy, so yeah, at least at one point there was a lot of interest. As for the economics, suppose you have 8 people staying off-site. Say they have two cars, that's $40 worth of parking each day. Now, do you think EMHs and 60 day FPs are worth $5 a head? If so, you just paid for a Partial. I'd say they're worth more than that, and apparently others do too.

[AuburnJen 771]

Consider the following if you will:

1) Disney's supposed business plan is a 5-7 day stay and to empty the pockets of those who stay the 5-7 days

2) Disneys' reservation system is supposedly based on this business plan and booking one day or two days is very difficult

3) What behoves a person to reserve 5-7 days of phantom sites for FP's if this theory holds true?

[twiceblessed....nacole 433]

Lots of information said and I'm rushing to get out the door to the beach (yay!!)... so I'll quickly just add my 2 cents.

The Phantom camper doesn't bother me too much as we (typically) book pretty far in advance, so it hasn't really hurt us however... I can see it be very frustrating to those who are local and are trying to grab last minute sites.  As for blocking out weekend only stays, I think they need to do this... at least a certain percentage of the sites.  Too many folks are trying to make the (sometimes long) drive to The Fort and they'll stay longer than 2 nights over the weekend.  

I do agree with limiting the number of people allowed on each site and this INCLUDES those ridiculous "night parties" where guests/visitors blow up a large projector screen and then line up 20+ chairs for people to sit out at 10p at night and watch a movie.   You may be camping, but you're not in the middle of nowhere... your neighbors are close by and I find it rude to disrupt people with your movie or music.  On the same topic, there is no reason that one site should have 3 tents and 4 cars.  

All of this boils down to two things:  rules and a consistency in enforcing those rules.  The golf carts are dangerous.  Period.  They need to hire actual PD to patrol the park.  

As for maintenance at the property.... attention to detail has been lacking these past couple of years.  That needs to be changed.

Love The Fort... so many wonderful memories for this mama.  Each time we go, I ride my bike around the loops and I am reminded of my babies at certain stages as I ride by different sites and think, "they were that old when we stayed there".  Sigh... tears me up thinking about it.  The Fort can be magical.  Disney can take the reins and turn it around.  I have no doubt.

[hunter99 7]

I have seen phantom camp sites several time at the Fort. I have even seen someone come, have a picnic at the site, and then leave and never come back. Since Security does keep track, and they do sometimes call Disney has a mechanism in place to reduce the problem. Simply call on any site that is not occupied if it is booked whether someone checked in or not. Do this every single day stay on top of it. Once word gets out that Disney is keeping up with this the problem would thin down. Would it go away entirely? I doubt it. It would require the staff to do this and not selectively call people. I was called a year ago when we didn't check in by 8pm. explained we had an issue on the way down and would be there shortly. That is all they have to do and it avoids step price increases to kill the problem.

On the other hand, the underage cart driving is really a problem that seems like it is getting worse. Last November there was one group of teenagers that i guess the parents had brought there own cart. It was a really old one from the 60's. Anyway, they would get going really fast and slam on the brakes skidding 15 to 20 feet. I reported it but it went on for another 2 days around the Fort.

I remember when we used to go and you would see security ride through the sites at least once an hour and always run into them on the main roads.

Anyway, my 2 cents.........

[fladogfan aka Gretchen 259]

Carol took me looping my first night at the fort for WWW.  We saw a golf cart get stopped by a fort ranger and the baby or young child was moved from the driver's lap to the other person's lap up front.    Saw something else that pleased me but CRS is working for me and access is not working..

[shoreline99 137]

Cut down on the 'non-resident' / locals visitors to the parking lot, fort pool and picnic areas. I was told by a friend that worked for WDW years ago as a cast member that it was well known among the staff that they could tell friends visiting and staying elsewhere about free parking at the fort and the use of the pool and amenities there as a freebie because no one ever checks. Only hiccup is getting past the gate, but that's not difficult.

He has friends that just did exactly that over the past spring break week a couple of times - stayed off property, came to the fort and used the pool and free transportation. Cut down on that, please.

[GaDawgFan.....Kelly 799]

I have seen phantom camp sites several time at the Fort. I have even seen someone come, have a picnic at the site, and then leave and never come back. Since Security does keep track, and they do sometimes call Disney has a mechanism in place to reduce the problem. Simply call on any site that is not occupied if it is booked whether someone checked in or not. Do this every single day stay on top of it. Once word gets out that Disney is keeping up with this the problem would thin down. Would it go away entirely? I doubt it. It would require the staff to do this and not selectively call people. I was called a year ago when we didn't check in by 8pm. explained we had an issue on the way down and would be there shortly. That is all they have to do and it avoids step price increases to kill the problem.

On the other hand, the underage cart driving is really a problem that seems like it is getting worse. Last November there was one group of teenagers that i guess the parents had brought there own cart. It was a really old one from the 60's. Anyway, they would get going really fast and slam on the brakes skidding 15 to 20 feet. I reported it but it went on for another 2 days around the Fort.

I remember when we used to go and you would see security ride through the sites at least once an hour and always run into them on the main roads.

Anyway, my 2 cents.........

I'm not spending every night of my vacation reporting every empty site. Sometimes every site isn't sold out. I'm sure they also keep a small percentage open in case of something like a utility issue.

[ftwildernessguy 778]

Personally, I don't have a problem with the Phantom Campers.  I would much rather camp between two unused sites than a bunch of bottom feeders with 50 kids, or a PITA we all know who leaves his unattended yappy dogs in his trailer all day while he tries to figure out whether or not there is a full day of fun at Typhone Lagone

[mouseketab.....Carol 1,261]

2 hours ago, ftwildernessguy said:

Personally, I don't have a problem with the Phantom Campers.  I would much rather camp between two unused sites than a bunch of bottom feeders with 50 kids, or a PITA we all know who leaves his unattended yappy dogs in his trailer all day while he tries to figure out whether or not there is a full day of fun at Typhone Lagone

AMEN!

[AuburnJen 771]

5 hours ago, ftwildernessguy said:

Personally, I don't have a problem with the Phantom Campers.  I would much rather camp between two unused sites than a bunch of bottom feeders with 50 kids, or a PITA we all know who leaves his unattended yappy dogs in his trailer all day while he tries to figure out whether or not there is a full day of fun at Typhone Lagone

Preach it brother!  Amen and Hallelujah!

[DaveInTN 3,247]

Personally, I don't have a problem with the Phantom Campers.  I would much rather camp between two unused sites than a bunch of bottom feeders with 50 kids, or a PITA we all know who leaves his unattended yappy dogs in his trailer all day while he tries to figure out whether or not there is a full day of fun at Typhone Lagone

That's all fine and dandy, but if I don't get a full days exciment at Typhone Lagone I'm likely to kick your bike riding kids off my site while whispering to my horses. And don't even think about letting BBQ smoke drift over to my campsite. Especially if I'm sharing a site with you.

Holy crap, pass the Eternabond.

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

1 hour ago, DaveInTN said:

 

 

That's all fine and dandy, but if I don't get a full days exciment at Typhone Lagone I'm likely to kick your bike riding kids off my site while whispering to my horses. And don't even think about letting BBQ smoke drift over to my campsite. Especially if I'm sharing a site with you.

Holy crap, pass the Eternabond.

 

So if I'm sharing a site so we can go a full day at the Lagone, does that mean we can only decorate half the site until midnight?

Can we hang our beach towels on your clothesline while using your grille?

And which half gets to park with 2 wheels off the pad?

Both? None?  This is hard thinking and you people are mean!     

 

[BradyBzLyn...Mo 2,023]

That's all fine and dandy, but if I don't get a full days exciment at Typhone Lagone I'm likely to kick your bike riding kids off my site while whispering to my horses. And don't even think about letting BBQ smoke drift over to my campsite. Especially if I'm sharing a site with you.

Holy crap, pass the Eternabond.

And Dave just won the Internet.

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[PGHFiend 140]

Pass the Eternabond!  Classic! 

[ftwildernessguy 778]

Eternabond is probably the only useful information I ever got from that clown.  IMHO.

[djsamuel 322]

Just got back today from the Fort.  There are some changes since our last stay in January, and much for the better.  The stay was MUCH more peaceful than in the past.  We were in the 200 loop, and got our requested site.  In addition, check in was great and very friendly.  We had to wait for the text message, but we received it promptly at 1PM and headed to our site.  When we opened our info packet, we were pleased to see the channel lineup card that others have posted about.  A nice change.  Also, there was a separate page the clearly spelled out the RULES, especially golf cart rules.  We never had that before either.  During our stay, not only did we see the rangers more often, but more often than that, we saw Disney security driving their vehicles through the loops, several times a day.  We saw NO golf carts being driven quickly, heard none of them beeping their horns.  Saw no underage drivers of the carts.  Also, the 200 loop is not a pet friendly loop.  We had no dogs in the loop until the weekend when it completely filled, and then just two that I know of and they were well trained and the owners courteous.  

All in all a very positive change in the atmosphere at the Fort.  I don't know if we've ever had such a quiet stay, and that was over Mother's Day weekend.  So, there may be hope!