Discamper 394 Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 Can anyone tell me why Disney will not add more camp site to the Fort? With so much demand for camp site Disney just keeps the Fort the same but will throw up a new hotel that cost a hell of a lot more in a minute. With all the land the Fort sits on it would be easy for them just to add a few new loops but Disney will not do it why? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
campingpixi 11 Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 cause the money is n.ot in the sites its in the rooms you figure $80 a night vs $250. Greed gets the best of ppl sometimes!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rdancemom... Pam 113 Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 IMO more sites could only be a win-win for disney.I can't help but think disney is saving money on campers when compared to resort rooms. They don't need to provide furniture, mousekeeping, linens, towel animals, coffee packets, hair dryers, and so many of the things we take for granted in a resort room. Maybe I'm looking at it all wrong, but really all FW is providing is a patch of ground with elec, water, and possibly sewer, along with the basic resort amenities, yet FW rates are often very close to the value rates... for instance, a full hookup site in aug is $54-$57 while a premium site was $71. POP and AS are only $69 for the same period and they've got to be more expensive to run than FW. Of course I'd choose the fort over most others any day. Still, you'd think they could afford to throw in a few little bars of mickey soap without hurting the profit margin... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Discamper 394 Posted May 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 To add they don't need to give FREE Dinning to get people to stay there. And there are more rooms at $80 a night than $250 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TnBob 311 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 think of how many rooms they can fit in the space of a campsite, now x 2,3,4 or however many stories they can pack on. They still have loop attendants so that makes housekeeping a wash, they still need to clean CS's and all the stuff you can think of. We being campers think it's crowded or hard to get a res but their call center most likly gets a vast majority of their calls concerning rooms and dining. Just my thoughts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BouncingTiggers 98 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I hope they don't add more loops. More loops means more people. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Otter Spotter aka Debbie 58 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 The only "additions" to the Fort in recent years were the extra sites in 600. Well that, and an abundance of cabin loops over the years. Cabins right now go for a minimum of $300/night. My take on this is for about the first 25-30 years the Fort was around you could pull up to the check-in without a ressie and get a site - no problem. They were so empty that they gave winter people long term discounts. Then 9/11/01 happened and the RV craze took off. In 2004 Disney dropped the discounted rates for winter settlers. In 2008 they changed the pricing of the Fort completely. I remember that if you checked in at a rate of say, $30/nite, and the rates went up during your stay, you paid $30/nite for your entire stay. Now, they charge a day by day rate with the weekends costing more than the weekdays.People are paying the rates. The Fort as always, is full on the weekends (higher rates) and empty during the week. They don't need to build any more loops.The economy tanked in 2007 yet, people are still paying ridiculous prices to camp. RV sales have been in the toilet since 2007 and overall, people are not buying new RV's and can't sell their used ones.The further we become removed from 9/11 and the higher the gas prices go up, the less people will seek out the Fort as a place to stay. Even though it's not preferable (to me), a value resort and driving a vehicle without towing a trailer or driving a MH is a much cheaper way to vacation. If people can get more bang for their buck, they will opt for it and perhaps stay longer, which equates to more $$ all around for Disney. Throw in the meal plans and you get an all-inclusive vacation for less $$ per day than what a site + cost of camping equipment + cost of travel + cost of your own food + passes would be a the Fort. People do the math and get what they think is the best value for their vacation.If Disney thought the Fort was worth expanding, they would have done so during the pitiful remodeling in 2008 and they would have doubled the size of the pool. The fact that they didn't tells you that all Disney is doing is maintaining Walt's dream. If WDW were being built today, there would be no Fort Wilderness.Did I make any sense? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lou... 3,118 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 The premise that Disney builds hotels at WDW at the drop of a hat and does not expand the Fort is IMO, not valid . Unless I'm mistaken, the newest non DVC resort is over ten years old. I believe that the only new hotel to be built on WDW property in over ten years will be the Art of Animation resort and even that is not totally new construction. As far as I know, the only new resorts in the planning stages are all DVCs.Greed gets the best of ppl sometimes!!I think Disney and other successful businesses would call it good business sense. To add they don't need to give FREE Dinning to get people to stay there. Nothing is free at WDW. They don't need to build any more loops.AgreedIf Disney thought the Fort was worth expanding, they would have done so during the pitiful remodeling in 2008 and they would have doubled the size of the pool. DittoDid I make any sense?As usual, yes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Santa ... Shannon 160 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I can't put my hands on it right this moment but I have a map that shows that all those woods around the Fort, that would seem to be prime for new loops, are protected wetlands. Not that that's an insurmountable challenge. But there are also other facilities issues that come with added capacity. Check-in lanes get swamped, overflow lot fills, golf cart parking is insufficient, lines for the boats get ridiculous, the pool gets so full of people you could walk across it and not get wet, and that's with today's crowds. So adding loops means lots of new facility changes as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ftwildernessrick 10 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I think sometimes I would just be happy if they got rid of those useless sink faucets in the comfort stations. It is the little things that annoy me - OK, so the big things also annoy me. :argh: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Roller ... aka Ed 351 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 42 :rofl2: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tri-Circle-D 2,059 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I agree with Deb, Lou and Shanta-If there was a buck to be made by expanding the Fort, WDW would do it in a heartbeat. Obviously, they see the DVC's as a cash cow, and it is because of this that I believe the rumor about a new DVC project going in the old River Country area is true. It has been said before, and I agree, that WDW management doesn't know what to do with the Fort. Could they offer promotions to fill the Fort on weekdays? Absolutely! But they don't. They must figure it isn't worth it to them.I can't put my hands on it right this moment but I have a map that shows that all those woods around the Fort, that would seem to be prime for new loops, are protected wetlands. Not that that's an insurmountable challenge. But there are also other facilities issues that come with added capacity. Check-in lanes get swamped, overflow lot fills, golf cart parking is insufficient, lines for the boats get ridiculous, the pool gets so full of people you could walk across it and not get wet, and that's with today's crowds. So adding loops means lots of new facility changes as well.Shanta-I remembered where this was previously discussed. So, here is a drawing showing the designated wetlands at WDW. The area of the Fort is (sloppily) circled in orange:And, this is an excellent overlay that you created showing the designated wetlands on a Google Earth image:TCD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Santa ... Shannon 160 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 You keep better track of my stuff than I do! Thanks, TCD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rdancemom... Pam 113 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I continue to be impressed with the knowlege and research of the fiends. What a terrific resource ff.net is! :yay: Great map Shanta... Awesome & quick response as always TCD... I enjoyed seeing both maps, thanks!Note to self - never try to keep a secret from these guys, they're way too good... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AuburnJen 771 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 The only "additions" to the Fort in recent years were the extra sites in 600. Well that, and an abundance of cabin loops over the years. Cabins right now go for a minimum of $300/night. My take on this is for about the first 25-30 years the Fort was around you could pull up to the check-in without a ressie and get a site - no problem. They were so empty that they gave winter people long term discounts. Then 9/11/01 happened and the RV craze took off. In 2004 Disney dropped the discounted rates for winter settlers. In 2008 they changed the pricing of the Fort completely. I remember that if you checked in at a rate of say, $30/nite, and the rates went up during your stay, you paid $30/nite for your entire stay. Now, they charge a day by day rate with the weekends costing more than the weekdays.People are paying the rates. The Fort as always, is full on the weekends (higher rates) and empty during the week. They don't need to build any more loops.The economy tanked in 2007 yet, people are still paying ridiculous prices to camp. RV sales have been in the toilet since 2007 and overall, people are not buying new RV's and can't sell their used ones.The further we become removed from 9/11 and the higher the gas prices go up, the less people will seek out the Fort as a place to stay. Even though it's not preferable (to me), a value resort and driving a vehicle without towing a trailer or driving a MH is a much cheaper way to vacation. If people can get more bang for their buck, they will opt for it and perhaps stay longer, which equates to more $$ all around for Disney. Throw in the meal plans and you get an all-inclusive vacation for less $$ per day than what a site + cost of camping equipment + cost of travel + cost of your own food + passes would be a the Fort. People do the math and get what they think is the best value for their vacation.If Disney thought the Fort was worth expanding, they would have done so during the pitiful remodeling in 2008 and they would have doubled the size of the pool. The fact that they didn't tells you that all Disney is doing is maintaining Walt's dream. If WDW were being built today, there would be no Fort Wilderness.Did I make any sense?I could not have said it any better. If the demand is there and the people are paying the prices, there is no need to expand it. It is working to its capacity in their opinion and doing its job. For them to make it so that it doesn't fill up all the time does not make economical sense for the bean counters. It would make sense to us, not to them. I don't like paying the prices, so I camp other places. I am a local however and have that option. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikeymouse1 25 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I've heard the old rummer that someone high up looks down on us campers as riffraff and the scourge of the earth and the property we camp on is prime real estate and us people that sleep in trailers and on the ground are P.D.T. ( Poor Disney Trash).Oust us and put in a 5 star resort to complement Golden Oak! Thats what I think is in someones long term plans! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
campingpixi 11 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 oh well guess im the riffraff then and damn proud of it!! :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lou... 3,118 Posted June 1, 2011 Report Share Posted June 1, 2011 I've heard the old rumor that someone high up looks down on us campers as riffraff and the scourge of the earth and the property we camp on is prime real estate and us people that sleep in trailers and on the ground are P.D.T. ( Poor Disney Trash).Oust us and put in a 5 star resort to complement Golden Oak! Thats what I think is in someones long term plans!From where I sit I haven't heard that sentiment, generally speaking. Sometimes the Fort shares buses with the WL and I can't say that I've heard WL guests say negative things when I stop at the Fort. They usually say positive things until I open the door and a 300lb tattooed guy in a black muscle shirt steps in with his, I guess wife, wearing almost the same outfit. So much for that theory.I think most reasonable people know that some of the rigs staying at the Fort cost more than their homes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikeymouse1 25 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 We still all look like Randy Quaid in Christmas Vacation first thing in the A.M. even in those high end rigs! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikeymouse1 25 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 oh well guess im the riffraff then and damn proud of it!! :)ME I'M JUST P.D.T. :banana: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rdancemom... Pam 113 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 We still all look like Randy Quaid in Christmas Vacation first thing in the A.M. even in those high end rigs!So do the folks sitting around the concirege lounge every morning sucking up donuts & cereal at the BC... the main difference I see is that the campers generally look happier, are always friendlier, and have the added bonus of knowing it's only right to clean up after themselves... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
doodlebug....Cherie 461 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 So do the folks sitting around the concirege lounge every morning sucking up donuts & cereal at the BC... the main difference I see is that the campers generally look happier, are always friendlier, and have the added bonus of knowing it's only right to clean up after themselves...Amen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Otter Spotter aka Debbie 58 Posted June 2, 2011 Report Share Posted June 2, 2011 Golden Oak will not be in visual range of the Fort - so don't fret about the Fort being closed for that reason.I wouldn't fret about the Fort closing at all. It was part of Walt's original plan for the Florida project. If he had access to enough property in California there would have been a campground there, too. Now in 100 years or so, when people have all but forgotten who Walt Disney was and what his dreams and plans were...you may see the Fort closed and changed into a mega resort. I wouldn't count on that happening anytime soon though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brerroadrunner 8 Posted June 4, 2011 Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 I've also pondered OP question myself. I like all the responses. How often is the Fort booked to capacity and how many campers are turned away at those times. I tried for a year to get a site for the 99-2000 celebration and it wasn't until around Thanksgiving that I got it. I kept thinking, if they are booked solid a year out, they would have had plenty of time to add more loops so I could get my ressie! I suppose a lot of people canceled for the Y2K fear and that is why it opened up. We stayed two weeks and it really wasn't terribly crowded. That was our best vacation.One reason I love staying at the Fort is because it is so peaceful and quiet. You would never know you are in the middle of a huge resort and just across the lake can be up to 90,000 people.More loops mean more infrastructure, I suppose. I just want cheaper rates and more availability. Is that too much to ask? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Discamper 394 Posted June 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2011 I would say Disney would make a lot more money by adding 200 more sites than they would by adding 500 more rooms. It cost a lot of money to build 500 room and if they can’t sell them all it still cost money to maintain them ( electric A/C , lights, painting, mousekeeping, ETC) for $80 a night. If they add 200 sites and can’t sell them all the time there cost is a lot less ( no electric A/C Lights , mousekeeping, painting, Etc) for $80 a night Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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