At what point does the Fort not become worth it?

[Grumpy and Grandma 739]

36 minutes ago, Travisma said:

I believe it was the all knowing Lou, bus driver extraordinaire, that set everyone straight a while back.He stated, that except around holidays, the Fort is like a ghost town during the weekdays,

Then why is 85-90% full right now? People have been leaving and then the sites fill up again. That's been happening since we got here. The site next to.us wasn't empty 20 minutes and the people who were here for the weekend were from Fl.

It's quiet during the week because the idiots aren't here that arrive on FRI and leave on SUN. No racing golf carts, kids being towed on skateboards, blaring golf cart horns etc. 

 

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

22 minutes ago, Grumpy and Grandma said:

Then why is 85-90% full right now? People have been leaving and then the sites fill up again. That's been happening since we got here. The site next to.us wasn't empty 20 minutes and the people who were here for the weekend were from Fl.

It's quiet during the week because the idiots aren't here that arrive on FRI and leave on SUN. No racing golf carts, kids being towed on skateboards, blaring golf cart horns etc. 

 

I am not surprised that the Fort is 85-90% full right now.  These are the last days of regular rates before Peak and Easter rates will be in place from February 11 through the first week of April.

I predict at mass exodus on February 10th.  Let's see how full things are in a week, when the President's Day guests are packing up and heading home.

If you get a chance, please ask some of those idiots who show up on the weekends how they got their reservations.  They might be idiots, but they're smarter than me, because I can't find a weekend reservation at anytime for the next few months.

TCD

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

1 hour ago, Travisma said:

I believe it was the all knowing Lou, bus driver extraordinaire, that set everyone straight a while back.

He stated, that except around holidays, the Fort is like a ghost town during the weekdays, and until those days get filled consistently, there is no reason for management to build additional sites or Forts.

I don't see how they could make a new Fort for just weekend visitors, unless it was fenced off and they just staffed it Thursday thru Mondays. Would it have a pool, that wasn't maintained 3 or 4 days a week?  What about site cleanups after storms, would they stay littered until the staff opens the gates for weekend visitors? 

I'm all for a place for weekend visitors, and obstacles could be overcome, but is it worth it for Disney to try to do it? 

Remember, they aren't your friend, they are a major money making conglomerate.

 

You wouldn't have to limit it to weekend campers, but rather for those who are looking for a bargain, only staying for a day or two or three, and/or don't really care too much about where their camper is parked as long as it is parked at WDW.

I believe there is money to be made by treating campsites more like they do hotel rooms or even DVC rooms.

 

Here's what I would pitch to Disney if I were to find myself in front of "them":

"In order to maximize appeal to our camping guests let's create a tiered system of RV sites similar to how we have a tiered system of hotel rooms.

1. We build a short term "Value" camping area w/ limited themeing and amenities. Possibly like the caravan parks in Europe.  Quick in quick out and a Value price.

2. We designate Fort Wilderness as our "Moderate" RV resort for those guests looking for longer stays with a moderate price.

3. And lastly we build a "Deluxe" Resort that is aimed at both long term campers, extra large rigs, and those looking for an "upscale" experience."     

 

[Grumpy and Grandma 739]

2 hours ago, Tri-Circle-D said:

I am not surprised that the Fort is 85-90% full right now.  These are the last days of regular rates before Peak and Easter rates will be in place from February 11 through the first week of April.

If you get a chance, please ask some of those idiots who show up on the weekends how they got their reservations.  They might be idiots, but they're smarter than me, because I can't find a weekend reservation at anytime for the next few months.

TCD

Then why has it stayed full in past years, especially on weekends? Did you ever think maybe they plan ahead. The FORT is a destination not a weekend campground. 

 

 

[BradyBzLyn...Mo 2,023]

10 minutes ago, Grumpy and Grandma said:

Then why has it stayed full in past years, especially on weekends? Did you ever think maybe they plan ahead. The FORT is a destination not a weekend campground. 

No firsthand info, but I have heard "word on the street" that some locals just book a bunch of weekends way out and then drop them when they don't need them within the refund window.  It means you'd have to lay out a good bit ahead of time in deposit money, but I guess for some it's worth it.

[Snarky-Fairy 1]

10 hours ago, Tri-Circle-D said:

You make a good point- but, it's not one that anyone disputes- there are no other RV resorts that are on the same level of Fort Wilderness- it is in a class by itself.

TCD

 

 

I actually wasn't really trying to make a point.  I'm really interested in alternatives RV resorts.   And I thought others might also. 

It would be nice for the kids and me and the DW to have some of the amenities that we enjoy at the Fort.  

Where would you stay if there was no Fort?   And why?

[Snarky-Fairy 1]

6 hours ago, Avatab.... Steve said:

 

You wouldn't have to limit it to weekend campers, but rather for those who are looking for a bargain, only staying for a day or two or three, and/or don't really care too much about where their camper is parked as long as it is parked at WDW.

I believe there is money to be made by treating campsites more like they do hotel rooms or even DVC rooms.

 

Here's what I would pitch to Disney if I were to find myself in front of "them":

"In order to maximize appeal to our camping guests let's create a tiered system of RV sites similar to how we have a tiered system of hotel rooms.

1. We build a short term "Value" camping area w/ limited themeing and amenities. Possibly like the caravan parks in Europe.  Quick in quick out and a Value price.

2. We designate Fort Wilderness as our "Moderate" RV resort for those guests looking for longer stays with a moderate price.

3. And lastly we build a "Deluxe" Resort that is aimed at both long term campers, extra large rigs, and those looking for an "upscale" experience."     

 

 

I actually like your business model.  And I think it would only work at a place like WDW. 

I could see how they could do that with the existing facilities and just modifying a few loops and adding another loop or two.   And a pool or two. 

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

8 hours ago, Snarky-Fairy said:

 

I actually like your business model.  And I think it would only work at a place like WDW. 

I could see how they could do that with the existing facilities and just modifying a few loops and adding another loop or two.   And a pool or two. 

Thank you, and I Agree that Disney is one of the few places that could support 3 separate CGs and run them the right way (if they were inclined to do that    )

In fact WDW's whole marketing plan revolves around Value/Moderate/Deluxe/DVC for their resorts. FW is kind of the odd man out and this would fix that.

And they absolutely could adapt the Fort to have all 3 levels Value, Moderate, and Deluxe within one CG.  Either as an interim step while they build new CG's or as the long term solution if there is room to build out.

Wouldn't it be nice to see that sign again out by the MK ticket booths, the one that say's "Camping sites open tonight"   

This plan could also make our dream of the Deluxe 3000 Loop come to life.....  

*****TCD ALERT******  

How about it TCD? Do you have a minute or two to break out the purple crayon?  Is there enough room near the Fort to add a few more loops and a couple more pools                 ( and HOT TUBS please!  )  

 

[Travisma 1,317]

38 minutes ago, Avatab.... Steve said:

Thank you, and I Agree that Disney is one of the few places that could support 3 separate CGs and run them the right way (if they were inclined to do that    )

In fact WDW's whole marketing plan revolves around Value/Moderate/Deluxe/DVC for their resorts. FW is kind of the odd man out and this would fix that.

And they absolutely could adapt the Fort to have all 3 levels Value, Moderate, and Deluxe within one CG.  Either as an interim step while they build new CG's or as the long term solution if there is room to build out.

Wouldn't it be nice to see that sign again out by the MK ticket booths, the one that say's "Camping sites open tonight"   

This plan could also make our dream of the Deluxe 3000 Loop come to life.....  

*****TCD ALERT******  

How about it TCD? Do you have a minute or two to break out the purple crayon?  Is there enough room near the Fort to add a few more loops and a couple more pools                 ( and HOT TUBS please!  )  

 

I remember that sign!  I had asked about it a year or so ago, and most Fiends had never seen or heard of it.

Not getting into technical details, but there seems to be plenty of land across the road from the 2000 loop and group camping areas, along the Purple Bus line.

Also, coming in the main road, off to the right near the hitch, unhitch area, which would be between the 1900 loop and the Outpost area.  Map shows lots of wooded area.

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

10 hours ago, Snarky-Fairy said:

 

I actually wasn't really trying to make a point.  I'm really interested in alternatives RV resorts.   And I thought others might also. 

It would be nice for the kids and me and the DW to have some of the amenities that we enjoy at the Fort.  

Where would you stay if there was no Fort?   And why?

This thread is getting too weird for me.

Who are you, and why are you posting under a Fairy name?  I've never seen that before on this site, and, frankly, I don't like it.

 

1 hour ago, Avatab.... Steve said:

*****TCD ALERT******  

How about it TCD? Do you have a minute or two to break out the purple crayon?  Is there enough room near the Fort to add a few more loops and a couple more pools                 ( and HOT TUBS please!  )  

 

Sorry, but this thread has gone off the rails.

There is no way that Disney is going to expand the Fort or build another campground.  Yes, there is plenty of land and space to add more loops.  But, you only need to look at the leaked plans for the River Country DVC to see that they have no desire to build more campsites.

They are raking in so much money from the DVC projects that they can't build them fast enough.

TCD

[mmfancipher 31]

Since people have brought up expanding the Fort with more camp sites I'll bring this up.  Jim Hill over on the Unofficial Guide Blog mentioned that once the huts on the water by the Wilderness Lodge are done the construction people will move down to River Country and will at least do the ground work for a new 5 story DVC on that site with a River Country theme.  Take it with any amount of salt that you want.  :)

 

 

[Avatab.... Steve 124]

1 hour ago, Tri-Circle-D said:

Sorry, but this thread has gone off the rails.

There is no way that Disney is going to expand the Fort or build another campground.  Yes, there is plenty of land and space to add more loops.  But, you only need to look at the leaked plans for the River Country DVC to see that they have no desire to build more campsites.

They are raking in so much money from the DVC projects that they can't build them fast enough.

TCD

 

Some of my posts in this thread were sounding awfully cynical so I tried to put my thinking cap on and come up with an idea that might be worth pitching to Disney as an alternative to letting the Fort continue to get louder, more overcrowded and chaotic....

My attempt to make Lemonade out of Lemons if you like.

I'm sure you are right about Disney, I just wish there was a way we could influence the direction they are letting the Fort go.

OK, back into our Doom Buggies and the regularly-scheduled Snarkiness.

 

[Travisma 1,317]

29 minutes ago, Avatab.... Steve said:

 

Some of my posts in this thread were sounding awfully cynical so I tried to put my thinking cap on and come up with an idea that might be worth pitching to Disney as an alternative to letting the Fort continue to get louder, more overcrowded and chaotic....

My attempt to make Lemonade out of Lemons if you like.

I'm sure you are right about Disney, I just wish there was a way we could influence the direction they are letting the Fort go.

OK, back into our Doom Buggies and the regularly-scheduled Snarkiness.

 

It never hurts to have a dream (or fantasy), but in this case I think it died on the table. 

Like I posted earlier about Lou's statement, they will not expand until the sites have a high occupancy rate all week long, all year long. Not just Friday thru Monday and during the cheaper (hah, I crack myself up) weeks.

Why change things?  They are making a ton o money, people come back even if they complain about things... guilty as charged... and we all know it's never going to be like the "Good Old Days" again.

But saying all that, I think the majority of civilized campers would be thrilled if they just enforced the rules they have in place fairly and evenly across the board.

Maybe instead of directing complaints to the Fort management, we should all send letters (those paper things in an envelope with a stamp) stating facts, listing incidents, etc. to the people higher up the food chain. I've never done it, in fact I've never written to the Fort management, though I've had conversations with some of them.

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

2 hours ago, mmfancipher said:

Since people have brought up expanding the Fort with more camp sites I'll bring this up.  Jim Hill over on the Unofficial Guide Blog mentioned that once the huts on the water by the Wilderness Lodge are done the construction people will move down to River Country and will at least do the ground work for a new 5 story DVC on that site with a River Country theme.  Take it with any amount of salt that you want.  :)

 

 

We had some discussion of that rumor on this thread: http://www.fortfiends.net/topic/11845-leaked-river-country-dvc-plans/?do=findComment&comment=474803

As was discussed there, if the River Country DVC is next, it's not as simple as the DVC people moving down to River Country.  They let the permits for the preliminary work involving new stables and a new dining pavilion expire.  Those pieces have to happen before any huge DVC project can be built on that site.

 

34 minutes ago, Avatab.... Steve said:

 

Some of my posts in this thread were sounding awfully cynical so I tried to put my thinking cap on and come up with an idea that might be worth pitching to Disney as an alternative to letting the Fort continue to get louder, more overcrowded and chaotic....

My attempt to make Lemonade out of Lemons if you like.

I'm sure you are right about Disney, I just wish there was a way we could influence the direction they are letting the Fort go.

OK, back into our Doom Buggies and the regularly-scheduled Snarkiness.

 

No worries.  It's just that the topic of Fort Wilderness expansion has been discussed on this and other boards for as long as there have been discussion boards.

There is ample land to expand the Fort or to build a whole new campground.  It's just not going to happen, so there's not a good reason to waste time discussing it.

TCD

[parrothead7368 aka Norm 101]

11 minutes ago, Tri-Circle-D said:

There is ample land to expand the Fort or to build a whole new campground.  It's just not going to happen, so there's not a good reason to waste time discussing it.

TCD

Disney can make more money going up than spreading out, they can also fit more people.

Best Regards,

Norm

[Travisma 1,317]

3 minutes ago, parrothead7368 aka Norm said:

Disney can make more money going up than spreading out, they can also fit more people.

Best Regards,

Norm

Careful what you say!  The next version of the Fort will be a 20 story oversized parking garage !

[DavinD 4]

4 minutes ago, Travisma said:

Careful what you say!  The next version of the Fort will be a 20 story oversized parking garage !

Fill it with fake trees and rock, some animatronic squirrels!

I'm there!

[Grumpy and Grandma 739]

39 minutes ago, Tri-Circle-D said:

There is ample land to expand the Fort or to build a whole new campground.  It's just not going to happen, so there's not a good reason to waste time discussing it.

TCD

One reason being it's not cheap laying in all the needed infrastructure (roads pads and underground utilities).  

[Tri-Circle-D 2,059]

16 minutes ago, Grumpy and Grandma said:

One reason being it's not cheap laying in all the needed infrastructure (roads pads and underground utilities).  

Absolutely right.  Plus, most of the surplus land around the Fort is designated as wetlands.  Disney could develop it if it wants to (just like they're doing over at the Wilderness Lodge), but they would have some major drainage issues to deal with.  That's not cheap.

TCD

[parrothead7368 aka Norm 101]

1 hour ago, Travisma said:

Careful what you say!  The next version of the Fort will be a 20 story oversized parking garage !

Well that's for the weekenders and now you better stop, you might get them thinking. LOL

Best Regards,

Norm

 

[geoffdaddy 33]

We've been going to the Fort since we started in 2009, sometimes a couple of times a year, and a couple of things I'll mention:

Even with the prices the way they are, it is still our favorite place to vacation, hands down. Even if we didn't visit the theme parks, that wouldn't bother us so much.

Now, that said, I read The Troll's responses, and I think that he has several things spot on. I never visited the fort (or even knew of its existence) in its heyday, and from reading about it I feel like I can commiserate with the old timers sense of what has been lost. I think this is the thing that bothers me about the Fort. They are jacking the prices up, because they can (and that's The American Way), but from my perspective, I can't think of a single thing that they have improved at the Fort since 2009, where's the money all going? It can't cost very much money relative to the other resorts to maintain the Fort, even accounting for occasional improvements or repairs to the infrastructure. It's gotta be going straight into the shareholders pockets, and they have to be profiting by a much wider margin than any of the other places. The amenities are all the same as they have been since 2009. Now clearly, the Fort is popular enough that they don't need to bother with this, but you would think they would want to roll a little more money into the cash cow instead of milking it bone dry. How about some updated amenities? I like the idea of a lazy river, or heck, scale back River Country and make it as some have suggested a shared amenity for guests of the Lodge and Campground? Seems like even in its current state of disrepair it would be less trouble to refurbish it than start it brand-new. It's only been vacant for 15 years, that's not a very long time....

Of course, we all know that that is not in the cards, since clearly they've spent some serious $$$$s designing a River Country DVC and that's the site they have in mind. They will pour money into that before anything at our beloved Fort.

Now, to suppress my grumbling and to think happy thoughts about my favorite place...

[keith_h 420]

9 minutes ago, geoffdaddy said:

I like the idea of a lazy river, or heck, scale back River Country and make it as some have suggested a shared amenity for guests of the Lodge and Campground? Seems like even in its current state of disrepair it would be less trouble to refurbish it than start it brand-new. It's only been vacant for 15 years, that's not a very long time....

I think Disney would have to do quite a bit to create a new River Country even if they scaled it back to be resort sized. While I feel the risk is very low the sandy bottom and warm water temperatures you have at River Country, or in much of the deep south, makes for the type of environment Naegleria fowleri amoeba thrives in. Disney already had one death in the 80's due to this amoeba which leaves a potential public relations problem if they try to reopen something similar. In order to eliminate this risk Disney would need to isolate the RC area entirely from Bay Lake and install some type of a hard bottom (i.e. concrete) and chlorinated water system. I just don't see this happening due to cost versus ROI. They can make a lot of money with what they have today and minimal risk both physically and with public perception. To make even more money they can turn RC into a DVC area and who knows maybe use Steve's suggestion of high end campsites where everyone has their own mini Yosemite/Yellowstone campsite for $2000/night. 

[BradyBzLyn...Mo 2,023]

6 hours ago, mmfancipher said:

Since people have brought up expanding the Fort with more camp sites I'll bring this up.  Jim Hill over on the Unofficial Guide Blog mentioned that once the huts on the water by the Wilderness Lodge are done the construction people will move down to River Country and will at least do the ground work for a new 5 story DVC on that site with a River Country theme.  Take it with any amount of salt that you want.  :)

Here in New England we have a LOT of salt right now...

[AuburnChris 193]

6 hours ago, Tri-Circle-D said:

Who are you, and why are you posting under a Fairy name?  I've never seen that before on this site, and, frankly, I don't like it.

I DO NOT LIKE IT, EITHER. THAT IS NOT WHAT THE FAIRY ACCOUNTS ARE FOR.

I don't like having to use Mod Voice, and I don't do it often. But to emphasize an important point before the conspiracy theories start:

The Tag Fairy accounts (there are a few - more than one and less than 5) exist so that a few people that aren't Jen and I can do the following things:

1. Change people's tags (the text below your avatar).
2. Nothing else.

The Tag Fairies do not have moderator status, nor are they voices of authority- either on the site, or on the Fort. Why have separate accounts? So they can log in as the Fairy account to change a user's tag without someone being able to play Internet Detective with the "Who's online" list and figure out who changed their tag.

Consider this a public rebuke of Snarky Fairy for the violation of PWF (Posting While Fairy), and I will get with him or her privately to make sure it does not happen again, as well.

[disneylitch......Debbie 60]

I understand everyone's concern with some of the issues at The Fort.  However, we have to remember that there are people reading these posts and we don't want to paint an extremely negative picture of The Fort.  Yes, things have changed over the years and not everything has been a change for the better.  With that being said, I love coming to The Fort and can't wait until my next visit.  It is very relaxing and much better than staying in a hotel.  I like not having to worry about dining reservations and can enjoy my stay on my own schedule.  Yes, there are things that I would like to see changed:  a way to enforce golf cart rules as well as the other rules in general, a better reservation system, improvements to the playgrounds, Wifi at all sites, and discounts comparable to the value resorts.  Hopefully we will see some improvements, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.